Episode 1

Transcript - Episode 1: Old Vine Barbera in Piedmont with Tessa Donnadieu of Vinchio Vaglio

The Old Vine Conference Podcast.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to the Old Vine Conference podcast. This is Cynthia Chaplin and today I am in Piedmont with Tessa Donnadieu, the export manager for Vinchio Vaglio in Piemonte making Barbera. Tessa, thank you so much for speaking with me today. We've been here for a couple of days, having a wonderful time with the Old Vine Conference. We've brought journalists and producers and wine writers and all sorts of other people from several countries to Vinchio Vaglio, which is a combination of two small villages who got together in the late 1950s to form a cooperative to protect and preserve Barbera, to make Barbera into better wine than it had been previously. And of course, our purpose today is to talk about the old vines that are part of the Vinchio Vaglio system and part of the Cooperativa.

So we're looking at 500 hectares here with 200 families who participate in the Cooperativa. And just to set the scene for our conversation, I have this lovely quote from Franco Lajolo, who is a writer born in Vinchio and was writing this in the 1980s, somewhere around there, around about the time that the Old Vines…the Vecchie Vigne project started here at Vinchio Vaglio. So bear with me and I'll just read this quote from Franco. He wrote, "how many vineyards did our ancestors wrest from the woods, choosing the most exposed hills and slopes, so that bunches of grapes that gave good wine could ripen perfectly? This colossal work required the contribution of thousands of arms, hoes, mattocks and spades in years without written records. When highly energetic, frenetic farmers, capable of miracles out of sheer necessity, uprooted enormous trees and planted Barbera vines that could withstand the aridity of the shell filled sands and the rugged slopes to produce unsurpassed grapes." I could not have said it any better myself having walked on the slopes today, where everything is done by hand and seeing the beautiful Barbera vineyards. So, Tessa, please tell us a little bit about how the Vecchie Vigne, the Old Vine project at Vinchio Vaglio came about. The Cooperativa was founded in the 1950s, but it wasn't until the 1980s that you arrived at this point. So fill us in.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:03:25] Thank you Cynthia. Welcome to Vinchio of course, and thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak about this beautiful project. Of course, we started in, I have to say, in a very dark period for Italian enology, especially in 1986 when the scandal of the methanol just popped up. And we were totally desperate about that situation. But of course, you know, just like vines, people are very resilient. So we just thought that there could be a way to just change the way we do the wine, the way we produce the wine, the way we work in the vineyards, to give better quality. We really wanted to get out of that period, that dark period.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:04:25] For our listeners, just in case anyone isn't aware, in the mid 1980s…1986, Italy suffered the terrible disgrace and terrible tragedy of the methanol scandal where 22 people died drinking very low quality, inexpensive wine that had been fortified with methanol, which of course was toxic. So it was, as you said, Tessa, a terribly dark, very tragic time. And it was uncertain whether Italian wine would recover. So here in Vinchio Vaglio, what did the Cooperative do to lift their spirits and to change the path?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:05:01] So I would say there were three visionary people. The first one was Giuliano Noè, who is considered the most noble father of Barbera. He was really the first, -an amazing enologist- to believe in... There is a word in Italian,  D'utile, to explain the absolute versatility of that grape. And he thought, because of the intrinsic, you know, the specific characteristic of that grape, the tannins, the acidity, and of course, the way you work in the vineyards... And trying to  map those very old vines, we would manage to get long lasting and more complex wine coming from those grapes.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:05:59] It's such an important moment. So, Giuliano Noè, as you mentioned, and as you called him, I love it “the father of Barbera”, he was the mastermind behind setting a format and guiding other producers, developing the regulations about old vines and about Barbera, and championing this grape...getting other producers on board with him to work in specific ways in the vineyard and to protect these old vines. So let's talk about some of these old vines that you have on the property. How old are your old vines?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:06:36] At that time, we really decided to draw on our internal regulations to get into that specific project. So we decided to map the vines, which were, at that time, at least 50 years old. Today, of course, we have these very, very old vines. And the oldest vine is from 1947.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:07:04] That is a very old vine.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:07:06] Yes. Exactly. So from what we know, today, this is really the oldest vine we have.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:07:15] In those days, in the 1980s, Barbera was thought of as a very simple wine, farmers wine, to be drunk young...they drank it every day, it was not the best quality. It's a very vigorous vine so people had planted quite a lot of it. It got along very well in this microclimate…quite warm, quite sunny, and they were making a huge quantity of Barbera, but the quality was pretty average, if not poor. So, why did you decide to focus on the old vines? What were they bringing to the Barbera at that time?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:07:48] Because, of course, we needed to improve the quality of the grape. It was really considered a table wine, for every day, you know, for the workers, because it was like for energy, people used to drink a glass of Barbera maybe at lunch time to give them the energy to work. But of course, Giuliano had the idea to work specifically on giving it some oak ageing, you know, to try to age the wine.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:08:30] That was a very revolutionary idea.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:08:33] It was, totally, it was an innovation to try to enhance the tannins a little, because Barbera has very low tannins, and because of the high acidity and the tannins, thanks to the oak ageing, we managed to get this long lasting and more complex wine. So that was the idea really.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:09:45] Of course, the yield per hectare. And because they are very low, nearly 40 quintals and...

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:09:53] Most Barbera is about 90 quintals per hectare. Is that right?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:09:57] Exactly, exactly. And especially because of the physiognomy of the territory, with the steep sloped hill, you know, the altitude, we really can't have those high yields per hectare. So we really need, you know, to work carefully. But at that time, the most important thing was, -especially because we needed to keep that patrimony alive- the winegrowers, they needed motivation. Even if they were really full of passion. So we tried to reward them, giving a better income for this wine. So we decided to pay 20% more than the market at that time.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:10:45] That's an incredible belief in the product that you hoped you would create, because Barbera at the time wasn't a luxury wine at all. As you said, people were drinking it just as a lunchtime pick-me- up and to have a little bit more energy. I think I'm in the wrong line of work. Maybe I should be drinking Barbera at lunchtime ...

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:11:06] Probably (laughter).

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:11:07] It was a confidence in these vines. So we know that old vines, although they produce fewer grapes, less than half of the yield, they are more concentrated. They are resistant to disease and to pests. So giving your members in the cooperative a 20% sort of bonus for not digging up their old vines, not replanting, keeping them, knowing that their yield would be lower. That was pretty revolutionary in the 1980s. So I know that the first vintage of the Vecchie Vigne project at Vinchio Vaglio was in 1987, and the Commission was not too happy about it, and they said it didn't follow the regulations, and so they demanded that it be called vino di tavola, the lowest of the low. So what happened in the year following the release of that first Vecchie Vigne?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:12:11] The evolution, I think, came with the first... The evolution of the appellation from Barbera d'Asti D.O.C. and then in 2008 it became a DOCG... you know, because those old vines really were the best of our production. They became like a cru.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:12:40] Exactly. And I think the important step we're missing is that in 1998. So only one year later, the Commission saw the big success and said, oh dear, we're so sorry. We would like to let you into the D.O.C. now. So only one year of being vino di tavola.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:12:57] Absolutely.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:12:58] Which shows the quality of the [00:13:00] wine that was produced. How many families were with the Cooperativo in 1987, 1988.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:13:07] 19 families.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:13:10] And now you've grown to 200. Exactly. So that's an enormous leap in not many years. So I think you've convinced more producers to come on board. I've been here now for a couple of days, travelling around, seeing the vineyards, beautiful sandy soil, vineyards that are worked all by hand and I have tasted a lot of the wine. So it's very interesting to see how this project has brought people together and turned this Cooperativa around -And let's face it, there are a lot of cooperatives in Piemonte that are not very good quality- Vinchio Vaglio now has been awarded prizes by Gambero Rosso, and this year was an important year for you as well because you have finally earned the Equalitas Sustainable Certificate. How did that happen?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:14:02] It has been evolving since the beginning because in the 60s, the Cooperative was created with the idea of giving, you know... At the time most of the wine, especially from the Cooperative, they were sold in bulk, you know, and everything was in the hands of the bottlers and négociants. But they decided at that time, because they wanted to have control of the price of the grapes, the price for their efforts, their work. So that's why the Cooperative was created. Then, of course, the first quality project arrived with the old vines in the early 1990's. And then it was just continuous work, constant work in protecting the territory and improving, you know, so we had these beautiful vineyards, which is of course, from 2014 they became a Unesco patrimony, a World Heritage patrimony. And it was really, you know, for the landscape and the hills and the vineyards, which was beautiful, and rewarding for all the wine growers who were working in the vineyards every day. And then after we decided, from that very traditional viticulture, in 2009, they invested in the 50th anniversary of the winery. They invested in very high end, high quality equipment to contrast with the traditional viticulture. Because everything is done by hand, the physiognomy of the territory is very difficult to work. So they decided to invest in a high tech bottling line, solar panels...you know, I think everything came over time. Every decade the co-operative made new efforts, a new investment, and of course, today in 2023, for us to get that sustainability certification is just the result of nearly 60 years of constant work on the territory. 

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:16:18] I was talking to your president, Lorenzo Giordano today, and he said that the philosophy has always been tradition and heritage and patrimony in the vineyard, but innovation and technology and looking to the future in the cellar. And I think you've just summed that up. So having been awarded the certificate from Equalitas as a sustainable cooperativa, which is a very difficult thing to achieve, a minimum of five years in Italy to have that happen. I just want to ask you, as the Export Manager, what do you think the old vines project at Vinchio Vaglio has brought to the company? Has it opened doors for sales? Has it opened doors to new markets for you, having these very sort of exalted products? And Barbera is quite flexible, from a young and fruity wine made in steel or cement, all the way up to things that you've been doing with selected pieces of Vineyards, Cru vineyards, as you mentioned, and use of all different woods to know Barrique old wood, new wood. What has this project done in terms of opening doors for Vinchio Vaglio in the market and in the external market internationally?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:17:36] For us, I always say...I want to mention this organisation, The Old Vine Conference. When I met Sarah Abbott Master of Wine for the first time, it was just very strange because it seemed like we knew each other forever. And when I started speaking to her about the Old Vine project, she just understood me exactly. And she's just...I found an international voice to speak about a project that we started in the early 90s. It's now all about a new direction, in terms of the Cooperative communication, because it's a project that is in our roots, and we have that incredible voice now, today, thanks to our Old Vine project. So for us, for me, for my work at the moment, it's incredible how much interest people have for the old vines. From east to west in the world, because it's something that brings history, that brings culture. And I think that it's a point that helps distinguish us. You know, we have been doing Barbera since…forever, but it's a point of distinction for a very special Barbera. It's not like any Barbera. It's Barbera, "that Barbera" from the old vines. So it's very important for us now, it's a point of communication.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:19:18] I think that is a fantastic way to look at it. And I'm so glad to have met you and been involved with you at The Old Vine Conference over the past few days, and I'm so happy that you're working with us and that Vinchio Vaglio is finding success through this very laborious project of doing their old vine wines in several different vinifications. So I'm delighted that you shared all of this with us. Thank you so much. And if there are producers listening or anyone in the wine industry who's listening, who would like to know more, how can they reach Vinchio Vaglio?

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:19:58] So thank you, Cynthia, for your kind words. And if they want to contact us, you can go onto our website of course, vinchio.com and you will find all our contact details. You can write an email at welcome@vinchio.com, or you can follow us on our social media @vinchiovaglio on Instagram and Facebook, or contact us directly in DMs.

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:20:32] And anyone who would like to, I'm sure, can come and visit you, as I have had the great good fortune to do over the past few days.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:20:40] By the way, for us, welcoming people at the winery is one of our most important projects. So we invest, we have a beautiful natural trade path called the path of the nest. It's just down from the winery up to the vineyards and it's beautiful. 

Cynthia Chaplin: [00:21:00] It's a stunning [00:21:00] path. I saw it today with many little stops called the nests, where people can stop, relax, see the vineyards view, as I saw this morning, the fog being burnt off by the beautiful autumn sun, but also to really experience where Barbera is growing at its best and its healthiest here in Piemonte. So, thank you so much for having The Old Vine Conference here and for being a part of everything that we do. It's been really lovely to talk to you.

Tessa Donnadieu: [00:21:30] Thank you so much Cynthia. It was wonderful to spend some time with you. And everybody is very welcome to come and visit us.